Agree with Scott.
We started the Midwest Hi Railers improving DCS which led to clean track being an ingredient to improving all command operations and especially DCS. So while were at it. .......... .........
The track on our layout clearly represents a major investment and is subjected to all sorts of temperature and humidity extemes while in storage. It clearly deserves all the care we can reasonably give it including correctly cleaning it for events and correctly preserving it for storage. And the big plus is that our engines --- Conventional, TMCC, Legacy and especially DCS engines will run more reliably.
Yep. No abrasives should be used on any of the 3 rail O Gauge tinplate track systems on our layout. Period. Amen. Abrasives not only remove the thin tinplate coating they roughen the surface of the track making it even more susceptible to corrosion and oxidation and grung and the rough surface wreaks havoc on engine wheels especially in curves. Effectively sands them down as surely as using sandpaper.
Yep. Our tinplate track relies on a very thin coat of oil to retard corrosion and oxidation and this thin coating should not be removed. If it is removed it should be replaced.
SO WHAT DO WE DO?
DURING SETUP. I propose we use a very mild solvent like odorless (as possible) mineral spirits with a ready supply of low lint cloths to wipe it off. On areas that are really grungy use electronics grade isopropyl alchohol or Goo Gone. Do this at setup and then rely on the oils that come off engines and cars to re-lube the track.
AT THE BEGINNING OF TEARDOWN or just before. Inspect and lightly apply a very very light grade of oil to any track sections that look like they need it.
Extra work for sure but it seems worth it to me to protect our investment and the improve the quality and reliability of our operations. Fact. One 36 to 40 inch section of track now retails for ten to twenty dollars depending on brand. Add it up.
What do you all recommend we use to?
Unless I'm asked to not do so, I am planning to clean the track during New Braunfels setup as described above -- and plan to bring some very light oil to use at teardown, too.
(Please note that I am successfully using electronics grade (99.5%) isopropl alchohol to clean my Atlas O track. But, it is nickle silver and is less susceptable to corrosion and oxidation than the tinplate track systems. Plus it lives in a carefully controlled temperature and humidity environment.)
Bill
On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Scott A Smiley
<sc.smiley@juno.com> wrote:
A great discussion.
I would like all to be careful in cleaning the track though. Remember that we have steel track with a thin "tin" coating on the steel to keep it from rusting. Our wheels can actually wear through this layer of tin over long term use. Fortunately we have changed out most of our track from the original stuff used which has helped us in reducing oxidation and improving electricity flow. However, use of abrasives on the track will take off more of the tin layer and shorten the life of the track. Right now, I believe that the oils on the rails from running the trains helps seal the track from rust. Cleaning before use should be good but not with repeated abrasive material, ie, sand paper, scotch bright, track cleaning blocks. All we need to do is to take off the grease and oil from the rails. This is different than the HO guys do since they are trying to remove the oxidation of their brass rails, chemicals will not help that much.
(Added). So, what I meant to also say is:
Of the three command systems IMO TMCC is the most reliable and almost bulletproof. Legacy is more complex and slightly less reliable. DCS is the most complex and seems to have the most problems. The new DCS System (new hardware and software/firmware) will be out soon and is supposed to fix this. While I won't be an early DCS Proto 3 adopter, I feel Mike Wolf the DCS founder, is the kind of guy who has not taken these DCS problems lying down. We know the Proto 2 engines will no longer have batteries and I believe he will see to it that DCS Proto 3 is very reliable. But, that of course means purchasing a new system much the same as we did when adding Legacy.
In the meantime even if the club takes measures to successfully improve our current DCS system performance on the layout we will still also need to pay more attention to cleaning the layout tracks. Ideally this should be a part or every setup and should be on the Setup FAT Controller's "checklist." I have signed up for New Braunfels setup and plan to bring the stuff to thoroughly clean the track.
And members who wish to have a better experience running DCS Proto 1 and Proto 2 engines should take more care to arrive at the layout with fully charged batteries and clean engine wheels and pickup rollers. Those of you who don't have layouts and don't run your MTH engines between shows should certainly pay attention to this.
The same holds of course for TMCC and Legacy engines but to a lesser degree since the TMCC and Legacy signals seem to be more robust and therefore more foolproof. The batteries in TMCC and Legacy engines really aren't a concern because they just preserve sound system continuity during short breaks in poweracross switches and the like, and have nothing to do with the engine correctly running. And they aren't rechargeable anyway.
I know it's wordy but, I hope this helps. Back to the World Series!
Bill
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Bill Lohman
<844bill@gmail.com> wrote:
Hope the following helps.
It is my understanding that the DCS TIU and a Proto 2 Engine use both the center and outside rails to communicate.
On page 16 of Barry Broskowitz' 161 page DCS O Gauge Companion, the "almost official" DCS bible, informally indorsed by the MTH DCS development group, it states the following.
"The TIU determines for which PS2 engine the command is intended and sends the data packets through the center rail to the engine. The engines receives the data packets, sends acknowledgement data packets through the outside rails back to the TIU and executes the command".
Before removing DCS from my layout I convinced myself that two factors negatively influenced day to day DCS operation on my layout.
- 1. Dirty track and dirty engine wheels and pickup rollers -- much more than with TMCC/Legacy.
- 2. Engine batteries that are not fully charged. If club members take DCS Proto 1 or Proto 2 engines out of storage and bring them to the club layout they run the risk running afoul of this. The fix is to pre-charge the battery (in the engine on a track or with a charger for engines equipped to accept one) or to replace the battery with a BCR (battery component replacement) device. The BCR has a capacitor in it that charges up very quickly when track voltage is applies. They are available on Ebay and Internet sellers.
(Also please note that if one attempts to start up a Proto 1 engine with a weak battery it can lead to the chip being scrambled which can only be fixed by un-scrambling the chip. This requires a de-scrambling kit which MTH sells in recognition of the problem. This fortunately is not the case with a Proto 2 engine. A weak battery will just impact performance until the battery is charged).
Suggest whoever is interested in retaining and improving this version of DCS on our layout contact Dave Hikel and pick his brain. Dave is an accepted industry expert and as you can see from Ricky's initial message above, Dave seems to have vastly improved DCS performance on the Independent Hi-Railers, Midwest Division's huge modular layout by adding multiple TIU's and by using the "Susan Deats" RC circuits which are extensively described, used and discussed on the OGR Forum. He seems like a very friendly and helpful guy based on his OGR Forum postings.
Bill
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Ira Schneider
<ira_schneider@iname.com> wrote:
Scott,
The TMCC/Legacy signal is carried on the outside rails. The DCS signal is carried on the
center rail.
With the scheme used by IHMD, they isolated the center rails to create blocks, but
not the outside rails. TMCC/Legacy would still work correctly on their layout.
You can have several TIUs in a layout as long as each TIU channel is connected to
a block. I don't believe you can have multiple TIUs connected to a single block.
On our layout, we currently have four blocks - one for each of the four mainline tracks.
Each TIU channel is connected to one block. The connections are done within the
power cart.
As I understand their scheme, they divided their layout into multiple blocks and had
a TIU near each block. Therefore, each TIU only had to deliver the signal to a
small segment of the layout. Again, this requires isolating the center rail between
the blocks. I am not sure how we would be able to do that, since we have three
sources of signals to each module: the bridge tracks, the module wiring harness,
and the cross layout cables. They said their layout is a fixed configuration. Therefore,
they can create blocks wherever they want and they can dictate how the modules
are interconnected and use special isolated bridge tracks and module wiring.
We have a much more fluid layout and trying to create blocks would be much harder.
One way to create blocks on our layout would be to use special bridge tracks with
fiber pins in the middle of the center rails (one set for each block end point). We
would also have to use speical jumper cables at each block end point. These
cables would only connect the common and non-track power wires between the
modules. We would then have to rewire the trailer plug connectors coming into the
corners to route track power through a TIU (one channel per track). That would give
us four block per track and four TIUs for the layout, one at each corner. (I don't
think this is a great idea - but it could be made to work.)
Also, I don't believe this scheme would solve our main DCS issue: the signal is
not getting from the handheld to the TIU when the handheld is far away (i.e. across the room).
If there were multiple TIUs in our layout (for example, a TIU at each corner), the handheld
could probably get a signal to the closest TIU. However, since that TIU only controls
the modules near it, we might still have a problem controlling a train which is
at the far side of the layout (since the signal might not get to the TIU controlling
that block). Their scheme could potentially solve the problem that we can communicate
with a TIU but the TIU can't communicate reliably with the train since the signal
degrades so much on our layout.
I have seen a marked improvement of the DCS signal on our layout when we clean the tracks.
I hope this clarifies their use of multiple TIUs on their layout.
Ira
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