Re: Empathy for my Saturday Experience

[Bill Lohman <844bill@gmail.com>]

Hi Ira,

Based on your message below it's clear to me that your opinion on Command Systems (Legacy/TMCC/DCS) and my opinion greatly differ.  So, I am sending this response and copying the club general membership as I believe this is a very useful and positive debate.  And as I have heard back from several members who feel the same way I do that it is important to them that the Command Systems be reliable.

I suggest that it's time for the club leadership and members to "fish or cut bait."  Either decide that we are a club that is going to offer reliable Command Systems to it's members or decide to be a Conventionally run club only.  If Command then get behind it and fix it.

The club has created an expectation that these command systems are functional and available for the members's use at all the shows.   This is based on the fact that the club decided years ago to invest in the Command Systems, has followed on by purchasing a second Legacy CAB-2 and by installing all the Legacy upgrades as they have been offered.  AND has bought a second and much improved DCS TIU Rev L.  And the club recently spent a HUGE amount on the layout distribution system.  All in all way over an estimated $3,000.  If the club leadership spent this kind of money then certainly they must be serious about offering a RELIABLE Command capability??

 

On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Ira Schneider <ira_schneider@iname.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

 

Let me explain to you what lead up to my attitude of “so what, just run it conventional”.

You're attitude has always been "so what, just run it conventional as far as I can tell.  Bill

 

On Saturday morning, I started out setting up the carnival rides, and found that I had

no easy way to get power to them.  They require the accessory/turnout plug on the buss

cable, which was being used by the switch modules which were behind them.  (I realize

this was my own doing – I should have either put the switch modules somewhere else

on the layout or should have added double-headed plugs on the switch modules when

I rewired them, but I did neither).  I eventually decided to leave the switch modules

unplugged (figuring that the animated carnival rides were more important).

Ira, why do you think it's your call that the carnival rides are more important than  the switch modules capability?  It just might be that others would feel different about this.  Bill

 

When I finally got to run a train, I found that the DCS system was working better than

I had seen it in a long time.  I put my diesel engine on the track and it was

immediately found by the TIU.  (I usually have to move it to various locations before

it finds an engine).  I added the steam engine, and it worked also.  I added freight

cars until the train was complete.  I thought everything was OK with DCS.

 

The only thing which appeared odd was that the buttons on the handheld didn’t

always register.  That is, I would push a button and nothing would happen.  If I

tried a couple of times, it usually worked.  I thought the handheld was simply

having problems.

 

Later I noticed that I couldn’t necessarily control my train from various places

on the layout, indicating signal problems between the handheld and the TIU.

 

A couple of times the train just stopped and I had to restart it.  Sometimes, the

engines started up out of synch (i.e. the diesel was going backwards and the

steam engine was going forward).  The last time, the diesel engine just started

going forward while the steam engine was stopped.  At that point, I gave up.

I removed the steam engine, turned off the TIU, and just ran the train in

conventional mode.  (I did try resetting the TIU a couple of times, to no avail.)

Ira, There is simply no excuse for flakey Command Systems operation these days.  Lionel TMCC and Legacy and MTH DCS have been around for several years now.  In the beginning ,as is often the case with new technology, they were flakey.  But, they are now mature technology.  There are numerous large, complex private layouts across the country and numerous large club layouts across the country who use all three of these systems and they operate very reliably.  The club has a huge investment in these products and an even bigger investment in the new wiring distribution system that you designed and installed.  It there is a Command Systems problem it is with the TTAT implementation. Not the products themselves.  Bill

 

What did I really lose?  I couldn’t (easily) run the two engines as a lash-up.

Nobody could really hear the sounds, I don’t normally uncouple the engines

while I am running, and I rarely even try any of the other Protosound 2.0 features.

Ira, you're entitled to your OPINION.  Others feel different.  Bill

 

Someone else (I forget who) was trying to run a Protosound 2.0 engine, and

having problems, so it wasn’t just me.

Ira, no it wasn't just you.  The system didn't work as advertised.  Bill

 

Later on, you tried to run your engine.  I told you that the DCS system had

been going from bad to worse all morning and that I stopped using it.

You insisted on trying. which was your choice. 

Ira, yes I came to the show expecting that DCS was working which I think was a reasonable expectation after all the money the club has invested in Command Systems and wiring distribution..  Bill

You later asked me if

you could do a software reset of the TIU.  I told you that I had tried

doing a hardware reset (i.e. reboot) of the TIU several times which

didn’t improve the problem and that my opinion that the software

reset (which would just wipe out the TIU’s internal data base) was

not likely to do any better.  I suggested that you do the same as I

did – run in conventional mode.

Well, Ira here you go again.  I had been waiting 6 weeks to test the full capabilities of my latest and greatest MTH Proto 3 engine.  Proto 3 is MTH's new system for engines and is a huge technology leap and I was excited about testing it and showing the features to interested club members and show attendees.  I was keenly interested to see if this engine would run on the club's tubular track. 

I felt the software reset might have fixed the problem or at least improved it.  Why not try it?  Would not have interrupted the guys running trains as you have switches that take DCS out of the layout.  But, you refused.  While I have a very good understanding of MTH DCS the cart and distribution system are a big mystery to me because they are not documented and nobody is trained to work on them. Only you know what's going.  So, I didn't think it appropriate for me go it alone and do the software reset.  

The fact that you are the only person who truly understands the cart and the distribution system is a big risk factor for the club.  You can't always be there.  Furthermore, I think it would take a lot of pressure off of you if there were several other members who were trained on the Command Systems, the cart and the distribution system to share the load with you.    Bill

 

Some time later, while I was looking around on the show floor, Ricky

came and told me that you were upset that I wouldn’t allow you to

reset the TIU.  I explained to him that I had reset the TIU several

times, that in my opinion doing a software reset wouldn’t help,

and that you could do the software reset.  A little later Scott

found me and told me the same story.  I repeated my explanation

and said that you could do the software reset.

Ira, See above.  No way was I going to mess with the cart as it is a big black hole to me.  Bill

 

When I returned to the layout later, I didn’t see you around and was

told that you had left.

 

I am sorry, but I have very different expectations about our control systems

than you do.  My attitude is that the command systems are nice to have

and do allow for many different functions.  However, at a show, we

are basically running trains around in an oval.  We are not trying to do

fancy operating, like you do on your home layout.  Sometimes we

run multiple trains on a single track (for which the command systems

are invaluable).  However, most of the time, for simply running trains,

a fallback to conventional mode is not a major hardship.

Ira, to repeat.  Yes, I do have an entirely different expectation.  The club has spent the money and has created the expectation among the members that they can expect a reliable Command Capability.  Many members enjoy running in command mode to build lashups, run multiple engines on the same track and  use all of the features.  Falling back to conventional mode is a king sized bummer for several of us.  Bill

 

I understand from your note that you have a completely different

expectation for our command systems.  You appear to want to test

out features of engines which you can’t use at home, since you no

longer have a TIU, so influence your decision about whether or

not to buy more Protosound 3.0 engines.  I wonder why you

need to do that.  Do these engines perform to your expectations

on your home layout, where you can exercise all of the functionality

using DCC?  If so, why do you care if they run well using DCS?

You don’t have DCS at home, and you can’t really use most of the

DCS functionality on the club layout.

Ira, There you go again.  It turns out that I have an MTH TIU rev L and TMCC and am making plans to add an upper level 3 rail loop.  Rather than try to tell me what my motives and what my capabilities are, I would suggest you put that time into fixing the club Command Systems.  You designed and built the new cart and you designed and built the new distribution system.  So, why don't you fix the Command Systems?  There are several of us who are willing to team up with you and fix it if you will document the cart and the wiring and lead a project to make Command operate reliably.  Ira, I think it's time for you to lead, follow or get out of the way.  If you aren't interested in fixing it then let us know that too and we can fix it without you. But, I would vastly prefer that you lend your considerable expertise to the effort and that we all work in harmony to solve this problem.  Bill

 

You have been with the club long enough to know that our layout

is flakey at best.  None of the command systems work reliably

100% of the time.  The Legacy controller occasionally causes

problems.  (For example, several times this weekend people

who were using CAB-1 controllers were apparently locked

out by the Legacy command base which thought their

tracks were “owned” by a CAB-2 controller.)  We have had

signal problems with Legacy (which we finally determined

was the fault of our Legacy command base).  DCS sometimes

works great, sometimes not at all.  Most of us recognize

that one or more of our command systems may not work

well at every train show.

Ira, see above. Bill

 

I am sorry that you were disappointed that you couldn’t get

your engine to run in command mode.  By the time you

asked me for assistance, I didn’t have much empathy for

your problem.

 

I will bring your suggestion to the next Board of Directors

meeting that we consider purchasing backup controllers

for all of our command systems.  I agree that is a good

idea.  I just am not sure how practical it is.  It would be

difficult to swap out a controller during a show.  (Perhaps

a controller could be swapped either in the morning

before the show opens or at night after it closes.)

 

Thank you for explaining why you were so upset at

not being able to run your engine in command mode.

Your note was very insightful.

Ira, I was bummed out.  It was bad enough that DCS wouldn't work.  It was worse that nobody was willing to try and fix it.  Bill

Ira