My additions/comments to both Ira and Dwayne are in-line below.
BTW: This thread is now in a more positive mode. Me likey.
Cheers!
dwayneg57@aol.com wrote:
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">Thought I would put in my thoughts on the
questions proposed by Ira. See below.
David
- What problem does this module solve?
Allows for easier entry into / out of the layout.
- What are the benefits for this module? Is there a tradeoff
between
benefits (i.e. ease of entering and exiting the layout) and cost
(i.e. continuous operation of trains during an event)?
One possible benefit I have not heard from anyone yet is that it could
help to attract members to the club who otherwise might feel as though
they can't get get down on their knees and back up again. In this case
we may want to think about making the entry way handicap friendly (ie.
wheelchair accessable).
- Who will use this module? It it intended for
only people to enter and exit
the layout or is it also for dollies and/or carts?
If the module is built, all members of the club will use it in some
way. I would want to be able to push a dolly through this module.
Even if the bridge is not lifted, a dolly should be able to go through
if possible. This would allow trains to be brought in after show start
time and not necessarily have to lift the bridge.
- When will this module be operated? Is it intended only to
be used when
trains are not running (i.e. during setup, teardown, before the event
opens
to the public, or after the event is closed to the public) or is it
intended to
be opened at any time? If so, how often will we allow it to be opened
(e.g. any time, once an hour, etc.) and how long may the module be
opened
(e.g. 30 seconds, 5 minutes, etc.)
I feel like if the module is built that we should come
up with some type of method for it to actually be used. Let's face
it. When you are setting up, we always have an opening in the layout
until the last module is in place. When you tear down, once the first
module is down, there is an opening. We have the choice of where to
start tearing down to make that opening. Once the last module is in
place and adjustments are made, from what I have seen, trains are
running. That leaves a very small window of time to actually use what
was built if we only use it during set up and teardown. As I said
earlier this may be something that would attract new membership as well
as benefit others in the club that have already responded to this email.
Actually, during setup, the modules are clamped together pretty early
on, and then bridge tracks are added. During this time is when I see
the module being used frequently to get in/out of the layout. So lets
say setup takes 4 hours. I'd say after 1.5 to 2 hours the modules are
all clamped together and the utility of this module goes up! So I
think its utility is high for 1/2 of the setup time, and 100%
before/after official running time.
I agree that at teardown time, the first thing you do is open up the
layout.
During official runs, however, I think its a bad idea to stop all
trains to open up this module.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- What impact can this module have on the
design of a layout? Should we
restrict this module to a 4' length or can the total size be a multiple
of 4'?
For example, could it be constructed from three 4' sections or two 6'
sections?
I would not be opposed to making it with two 4 foot
modules. It would probably take this to be wheelchair accessible.
Is there a width restriction to this module?
Does it have to be the same
width as a standard module (i.e. 2') or can it be wider? If so, can it
extend inside, outside, or on both sides of the layout?
Because we are passing through this module, possibly
when trains are running, and bridges in place, we should limit the
width to 2 foot.
- Is there a weight restriction?
Two members or less should be able to carry module
from the trailer to the layout area.
- Should this module automatically affect the
operation of nearby trains
(i.e. should we consider having the module turn off the power to
nearby tracks)? If so, what impact will this have on conventional
engines
(which will take the power off as a signal to cycle their e-units), and
command controlled engines (who might take the power off as a signal
to revert to reset or neutral state)?
I am not enough of an electronics guru to answer this
question.
- Will the module be stored in the trailer? If
so, should it fit in one or more
standard module slots or will we stand it up somewhere else in the
trailer?
It should absolutely be able to be stored in the trailer.
- Should the module use the standard leg configuration or can
it have
integrated legs? If the legs are permanently attached to the module (or
part of the bench work) what is the height requirement for the roadbed?
Should there be a mechanism to adjust the height of the module to
meet the height of the adjoining modules?
Neither of the bridges that have been used can use the legs
of the club modules so I don't see where it would hurt for this one to
have special legs. The legs should be removable for easier trailer
storage. I would think the ends of the module would have to be the
same height as the rest of the layout. If the center was to be lower
(ie. a canyon type of scene) would be OK.
IMO we don't need legs. I envision the bridge module connecting to its
neighbour modules in such a way as to provide sufficient strength. The
floor part would be separate and provide routing for wiring only. But
I don't want to go into the planning/design phase prematurely. ;-)
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Should this module be one of our standard configurations
(ABCD or ABCE)
should it be a "universal" module (ABCDE) like the corners, or should
the
module be some nonstandard configuration internal to the module?
I would want this module to be and ABCD. From the sounds of
everyone that is commenting is they want the module to look good I feel
an unused track coming up to the module and stopping, or an unused
track on the module itself would take away from the looks of this
module.
- Is there a budgetary restriction (i.e. is
there a maximum amount of money we
are willing to pay to build this module)?
There have been suggestions made to create possibly a very
nice bridge. The board should set a limit of how much $$$ the club
will put up for this project. If others want to make some type of
donation would be welcome ( ie, lumber, wiring, etc.).
Yup, it shouldn't cost too much. I think Ira suggested <= $500.
That seems reasonable and sufficient.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- We keep referring to it as a "Lift out
bridge." Is there a requirement that the
module contains one or more railroad bridges or can it be just a
standard
(flat) roadbed which opens?
I like the idea of having actual removable railroad bridges
but this runs into cost. Would have to research how much cost would be
involved.
As Ira points out we probably shouldn't put bridges that restrict
clearances. At least on track 1 and 2.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- What are the horizontal and vertical
clearance requirements for the tracks
on this module? For example, if it contains actual bridges, what is the
minimum track spacing (if not 4-1/4") and what is the minimum vertical
clearance under the bridges?
Should be tall enough for ANY car currently used by a
member. Keep in mind I have seen crane type of cars and double
stacks which were taller than normal cars. These can create havoc on a
bridge.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Schneider <ira_schneider@Iname.com>
To: TTAT Members <ttat-members@aoot.com>
Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:19 am
Subject: Re: Lift out bridge
Here are my thoughts about some of the discussion topics I
proposed:
- What problem does this module solve?
Allow our members to enter and exit the layout
without crawling underneath.
- What are the benefits for this module? Is there a tradeoff between
benefits (i.e. ease of entering and exiting the layout) and cost
(i.e. continuous operation of trains during an event)?
It makes it easier to get in and out of the
layout. However, I would not want
to disrupt operation of our layout every time I want to go to the
bathroom,
go outside to reset one of the trolley cars, go outside to take
pictures,
etc.
Agreed (btw: the above two already were stated previously in this
thread).
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Who will use this module? It it intended for only people to enter and
exit
the layout or is it also for dollies and/or carts?
It should be "dolly friendly." There should not
be a step underneath the
module. Since cables will have to bridge the gap between the sides,
there should be some kind of ramp under the module to protect the
cables and allow dollies to cross. Also, there should probably be
some kind of open conduit to allow us to run our standard cables
under the module also.
Agreed (already stated earlier in the email thread)
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- When will this module be
operated? Is it intended only to be used when
trains are not running (i.e. during setup, teardown, before the event
opens
to the public, or after the event is closed to the public) or is it
intended to
be opened at any time? If so, how often will we allow it to be opened
(e.g. any time, once an hour, etc.) and how long may the module be
opened
(e.g. 30 seconds, 5 minutes, etc.)
I can't even begin to answer this question. On
one hand, it would be
convenient to allow the module to be opened at any time so we can
get inside and outside the layout without crawling on the carpet. On the
other hand, I would not want to stop all trains running. I would suggest
that this module not be opened while trains are running (i.e. only
during
"off hours."
Agreed. I don't see how it will be practical to stop all the trains
during runs.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- What impact can this module have on the design of a layout? Should we
restrict this module to a 4' length or can the total size be a multiple
of 4'?
For example, could it be constructed from three 4' sections or two 6'
sections?
It would be most convenient for this module to
be 4' long, so it could
simple replace a straight section. We currently have some sections
which are 12' long (Ed's bridge modules) and I can usually accomodate
these three modules in a row. With Ed's bridge, we can still put scenery
behind his transition modules.
Further, can we require special attachments for this module? If we do,
we can have a design that carries the load needed and doesn't have
legs. But that would require special fittings in the adjoining
modules. IMO that's ok. We pick a few modules that will always adjoin
this bridge module and install heavy duty locking widgets that hook the
bridge in.
So my answer here I guess is that it might require 2 4' modules + the
bridge itself.
(but I'm designing again. /me slaps himself ;-)
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Is there
a width restriction to this module? Does it have to be the same
width as a standard module (i.e. 2') or can it be wider? If so, can it
extend inside, outside, or on both sides of the layout?
If it extends outside the layout, it will
impact the size requirement for the layout.
We can easily accomodate a 6" or 12" extension on the outside of the
module.
If the module extends inside the layout it just encroaches on our
inside space,
which shouldn't be a problem.
- Is there a weight restriction?
This relates to how many people it will take to
transport the module to and from
the trailer and how it affects the total trailer weight. I can't
provide any input for this.
Should be carried by 1 person or 2 at most.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Should this module automatically affect the
operation of nearby trains
(i.e. should we consider having the module turn off the power to
nearby tracks)? If so, what impact will this have on conventional
engines
(which will take the power off as a signal to cycle their e-units), and
command controlled engines (who might take the power off as a signal
to revert to reset or neutral state)?
This would be a great idea, but I think it is
impractical:
1. Having an insulated power rail may affect DCS operations.
2. To power down tracks outside of the opening section would probably
mean
we have to power down some standard modules. That would require
insulated pins on the bridge tracks.
3. Powering down a section of track doesn't work very will with
passenger
trains. Most passenger cars have power pickups on both trucks. The
internal wiring in the car would carry the power across the gap.
4. Conventional engines would switch from forward to neutral if the
power
is turned off.
5. ProtoSound engines would probably revert to reset state if the power
is interrupted for at least 10 seconds. They are not easy to restart
on our layout.
6. ProtoSound 2.0 engines would probably turn themselves off if the
power
is interrupted for 10 seconds. They would have to be manually
restarted (i.e. run through the Startup sequence, then restart them
moving.
7. TMCC engines would probably turn themselves off if the power is
interrupted for several seconds. I don't know the procedure to restart
these engines.
Agreed.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Will the
module be stored in the trailer? If so, should it fit in one or more
standard module slots or will we stand it up somewhere else in the
trailer?
This module should be stored in the trailer.
Ideally, it should fit in one
or more standard module slots, but I don't think that is practical.
Perhaps
it could be stood up over the legs cart.
Yup
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Should the module use the
standard leg configuration or can it have
integrated legs? If the legs are permanently attached to the module (or
part of the bench work) what is the height requirement for the roadbed?
Should there be a mechanism to adjust the height of the module to
meet the height of the adjoining modules?
Ideally it should use the same legs as the
standard module. However, I
don't think this is possible. I believe the bench work must include
integrated
legs for stability. There should be leg levelers so we could adjust the
height
of the module to match the adjoining modules.
No legs needed IMO.
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Should this module be one of our standard
configurations (ABCD or ABCE)
should it be a "universal" module (ABCDE) like the corners, or should
the
module be some nonstandard configuration internal to the module?
This should be an ABCDE module, like the
corners.
Yup
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- Is there
a budgetary restriction (i.e. is there a maximum amount of money we
are willing to pay to build this module)?
I wouldn't like to see the club spend any more
than around $500 on this
project.
That seems reasonable
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- We keep referring to it as a
"Lift out bridge." Is there a requirement that the
module contains one or more railroad bridges or can it be just a
standard
(flat) roadbed which opens?
Railroad bridges look nice. However, there are
too many restrictions placed
on operation of the layout with bridges installed. For example, when we
use Ed's bridge module, we can't run any tall cars on tracks 3 or 4.
This
includes tall passenger cars, double-stack intermodal freight cars,
my circus wagon cars, other cars carrying tall loads, etc. We have the
same problem with Rick's bridge module, even though that only affects
track 3. I would suggest that this module not contain any railroad
bridges
which limit the vertical clearance of the track.
agreed
8CBB79980F82ED1-9D4-347@FWM-M37.sysops.aol.com"
type="cite">
- What are the horizontal and vertical clearance
requirements for the tracks
on this module? For example, if it contains actual bridges, what is the
minimum track spacing (if not 4-1/4") and what is the minimum vertical
clearance under the bridges?
The track spacing inside this module is
probably irrelevant. What is
important is the horizontal clearance between the outside rail and any
obstruction (such as a bridge). The vertical clearance should be
sufficient
to allow any passenger or freight car to pass though. I have one
freight car
which requires 6" clearance.
Yup
Steve.
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